It bothers me that they use any prayer at all. Government should protect the rights of citizens to profess their sprituality or piety as they see fit. But the government is not an institution of spirituality or piety in and of itslef and so should profess neither spirituality nor piety. If people want a prayer before the meeting there shouldn't be any stoping them, but they shouldn't be part of any official proceedings.

I agree with you Chris. People should be free to do public displays of religon, but the government itself should refrain actively doing religous activities.

Do you agree to the extent that you might email the city council (http://www.lowellma.gov/contact/council) and express your beliefs? The Sun article mentioned that Armand Mercier didn't know of any complaints. I'm guessing that there are many of that would like to see the practice stopped but remain largely silent on the issue. I suspect its for reasons ranging from not feeling strongly enough to bother or at worst, pressure to conform.

I think this is some small group of left-wingers making something out of nothing.
The first amendment protection is a freedom "of" religion.. not a freedom "from" religion.
I would recommend that the city council open up the opening of their meetings to any local religious leader who like to participate.
Acknowledgement of religion as an important part of the community is a statement I hold in great respect.
A short prayer hurts nobody if done in a welcoming way to all religions, and reminds us all of our place in the world, and that there is something more important than ourselves.

Dr. No says government should refrain from actively doing religious activities and Chris says prayer shouldn't be part of any official proceedings.

So that means we should stop swearing to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth in a court. In fact, let's do away with the entire justice system, since it's foundation is built on the 10 commandments and Judeo-Christian law.

Wake up people. The constitution protects people's right to pray and worship as they see fit. If our founding fathers didn't intend for religion to be a part of American life, they never would have used Christ and his teachings as the very foundation of the new country they established.

If we as a nation don't stand for something, we fall for nothing.

The problem with prayer in government is they become disassociated with everyone. We all have our own ideals, beliefs, etc. With prayer in any office it becomes an issue, not just for the incomfortability of people, but it brings up other issues. Things like abortion, "god says its wrong, science says it not a living thing yet", or other things like anyone sitting in on city council meetings who just don't believe in christianity? I've met many governmental figures over the years and most tend to be bright individuals (believe it or not...), but how would you feel if their decisions are completely based on their beliefs? Especially if they are not the same as yours?

Back to the point...
I wasn't born in the 50's so I didn't need to hold hands with everyone around the table and say prayer before dinner every night. Just keep it out of our government and i'm happy.

Pray for U.S., you and the other guy are not paying attention.

People should and do have the right to whatever religous acts they want in public. But the government itself should not being doing religous acts, especially for a specific type of religon. It gives the appearance of promoting one religon over another which the 1st Amendment Establishment Clause prohibits.

However, I think some people take things to the extreme with the Establishment clause. For instance, when a Validictorian is prohibited from saying a prayer that he/she wants to say in their graduation speech, that is just wrong because that person's right to religon is being infringed. Since it is the person and not the actual school doing the prayer, there should be no restriction.

But in the hysterical rantings of the right-wingers and the paranoid denunciations of the ultra-liberal moon bats, you see people forgetting the simple solution... people should be able to do public displays of religon anywhere they want (even in government owned places) and the government shouldn't be doing anything religous at all.

I do think that swearing under God is pretty meaningless in a courtroom given nobody can delve into the mind of the swearer to see if it would even matter to them.

The justice system isn't built on the ten commandments or even the bible. If that were the case we would stone people and own slaves.

As for standing for something as a nation, we were founded on the freedom of self government while protecting the minority by protecting a core group of rights from the tyranny of the majority.

I have no problem if people want to pray, I have a problem if the government wants to lead prayer. I'm with J-Mann. By all means exercise your religious freedoms, but keep them out of Government.

"A short prayer hurts nobody if done in a welcoming way to all religions, and reminds us all of our place in the world, and that there is something more important than ourselves."

The criterion to have a prayer shouldn't be if it hurts anyone. The criterion should be if it is right or wrong. It is wrong for the Government to lead any spiritual or pious ceremony. For the Government to espouse any spiritual or pious beliefs is a tresspass onto areas specifically forbidden to it. The government could declare that the color blue is sacred... the fact that it wouldn't hurt anyone but doesn't me it's ok.

Dr. No, you sound like Justices Brandeis and William O. Douglas all wrapped up into one. Actually, I like your reasoning. Government should not endorse any one religion over another, and the establishment clause to the First Amendment makes that point clear. Also, citizens have the right to express religious sentiments under their free speech freedoms and while I agree with your argument about valedictorians, there are certain times when religious sentiments, expressed on public property, can be construed as an endorsement. YOu are right: there is little common sense applied from right-wingers and left-wingers in this area, and that is why extremists fail to find common ground. The moderates on this issue see the practical applications of prayer, believing that if it is not done in an offensive, intimidating or insulting fashion, it can be condoned. God, no matter the religion, never hurt anyone. People do. So Dr. No I applaud your argument and promote you to become Chief Justice of the Massachusetts Supreme Judicial Court..

Just a sidenote:
The presidency is always a good example of prayer gone wrong in government. The country is torn in half over Pres. Bush's beliefs in many ways. I personally don't care what his beliefs are, but when the decision to go to war is based on "Did I pray before bed last night?" before he said "lets go to Iraq" is kind of a concern. I would rather have a decision for the good of the country made on common sense, and not a bedside prayer. For example, you ever hear the phrases "God helps those who help themselves"? Or how about "Prayer is the result of a hard decision".
I don't mind if people express their own beliefs in public, I just don't believe you should "sit by the table and pray with everyone else" before every meeting. Dr no.'s point is clear though.

Ahhhh, what fun I would have if I was Chief Justice of the Mass. SJC!

Best idea is to have a rotating group of clergy say a blessing, not a prayer, before each city council meeting. Include from time to time just a moment of silence. For a city that celebrates its tolerance and welcoming of different cultures, the Lord's Prayer is stuffing one particular faith down all throats.

I'm confused. Is a blessing less religious than a prayer?

I have a plaque in my hall it eads ... If ou pray first your whole day will go better .. Prayer belongs in everyday stuff. :) GOD is a personal GOD . He wants to hear from us every day . If we don't talk to GOD then HE won't hear us when we really need HIM . Lee

Chris, a blessing and a prayer are both religious, the question is whether they endorse a single religion and would prove offensive to others in a public setting such as a City Hall Chamber. I know a prominent agnostic in Lowell who always ends his phone calls by saying "God bless." When I asked him about this, he said it is a divine salutation that doesn't endorse Jesus Christ but acknowledges that their is a Creator somewhere responsible for this world. I guess a blessing and a prayer could be the same, if written in a way that makes a divine presence ambiguous. I just wonder how atheists would feel about it?

I have never heard of a religion that is more insecure then the conservative Christians or "right wingers" to contradict what Shawn said. A more intolerant peoples is hard to find. Look what they did to the American Indians, who were not allowed religious freedom. They preach how the after life is so good, but are so afraid of death and dying. This country was founded on religious freedom, not the Lord's Prayer. Look at what Bush has done to this country in the name of Christianity or what he says God speaks to him. The rule of life should be Do Unto Others, and no other. If people followed that basic belief, we would not be embroiled in religious wars. Who is there alive who can speak for God or what is good and right? Shame on anyone who considers him or herself able to speak for God, anyone's God. Look at all the suffering for the question of who's God is better?? If there is only ONE, then HE is there for us all, and respect and tolerance should be given toward all religions, as we are all under ONE GOD. A moment of silence and respect for all should be all we need at a meeting, and that should include all, not just Christians. This whole thing is ridiculous! If people are so insecure in their faith that it needs to be spoken at the City Hall chamber, it is no wonder that the world is so full of intolerance. God save us all!!! But which God?????

Do away with prayer or blessing? What next...change all the money from: "In God We Trust" to "In NO ONE DO WE TRUST" because that is what it will come down too. A moment of silence should be offered and should still be offered in school. No matter what the religion, we could all use a little reminder at the start of a school day, meeting or what have you, to reflect on our inerselves. For some, that means a relection of inner religion. for others, just ask the 9-11 masacre relatives who chanted in streets about the job well done. This is AMERICA. You have the right NOT TO LISTEN to the prayer or blessing. You do not have to follow it like it were a rule. Bush and his reasonings for going to war are a whole different story. BUT, it is worth saying that his religious beliefs of practices did give him the courage to stand up for his convictions. If nothing else was learned from this, perhaps it is a saving grace that can be taught to others. Prayer never hurt anyone. Whether or not God did is dependent on ones religious beliefs. People hurt people, and if a prayer of moment of silence/reflection will help curb that, then pray anywhere and everywhere!

The Our Father is the most beautiful prayer
in the world. The Lords Prayer embraces all
religion's and people to stand together and serve
the Lord.